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[wildonrio]

This is the scene where they are talking about what Granger changed. I've underlined the line that I don't get.

837 - What do you think he changed?- Not much.

838 we didn't have any contact with him in the 3 hours he could've done anything.

839 I know he changed this. I know we weren't having this conversation the first time...

840 so you don't know what we lost.

841 It really could not have been much.

842 It doesn't matter how much. It just matters that it's changed.


Ok, so what does Aaron mean with "we didn't have any contact with him in the 3 hours he could've done anything." What 3 hours? From when to when?

[pedro2112]

From 5pm (when presumably he got out of the box), until they saw him. Although that doesn't make sense, because it was more than three hours.
_________________
I'm in a groove.....

or is it a rut? - Neil Peart

[vode]

You're right, that makes no sense.

[foobario]

5pm vs 2am.

But - my favorite theory about why Granger is messed up is that he got out of the box too early (perhaps closer to when Rachel was in peril, if that is the reason he came back)... he wouldn't want to go all the way back to the beginning if he knew the part he was interested in was later in the week, or maybe he was claustrophobic or too excited and just couldn't wait. I wonder if Shane is letting slip when he thinks Granger got out, or even (cue lightning, thunder) if he's letting slip that Aaron *knows* when Granger got out. There's nothing in the film to support this idea, it's just speculation, but it's interesting.

Something's always bugged me about Aaron's "I slipped" comment, and the cut scenes of Abe running to the back of the house. I've wondered if there were other future Abes or Aarons in that scene, sort of in line with Rob Y's 'time war' idea. Did Granger really pass out, or did Aaron (3? 4?) body-check him into the fencepost to keep him from talking to Abe? Or were those 'cut-scenes' really a future Abe, and did *he* do something? Basically with Granger showing up out of nowhere, nothing can be trusted. The permutations are endless.


There's another line that bugs me - in the director's commentary, Shane says (at 33:18):

[hal9000]

[foobario]

Good call, hal9000.

[vode]

Thinking about the line "we didn't have any contact with him in the 3 hours", a completely different story behind TGI came to mind.

Aaron and Abe do one, maybe two, days of stock trading before Aaron finds Abe's failsafe. He goes back to Monday, sets up two new failsafes (in the same room and turned on at the same time), fixes the party and records the conversations of the day. This goes well, he carries on with the charade and repeats the first day of stock trading.

But then he has an idea. With a large stake he could make a lot more money. He approaches Granger and tells him about the boxes. Granger takes some convincing, but eventually agrees to provide the money on condition that he experiences time travel for himself.

Aaron 2 and Granger 1 go back in Aaron's failsafes to become Aaron 3 and Granger 2. Aaron has no qualms about stealing his previous self’s life but it’s not something that Granger had even considered. Aaron 3 convinces Granger 2 that this is the only way and helps him drug and lock away the original Granger.

On Thursday night, at around 11 o’clock, the original Granger escapes. He’s confused, someone has taken over his life, but he thinks that he recognised Aaron as one of his attackers so he heads over to Aaron’s house to confront him.

Granger 2 calls Aaron 3 to tell him that Granger 1 has escaped. Aaron 3 goes to Granger’s house and they search for Granger 1 but don’t find him. Aaron 3 returns home, shortly before 2 am. Granger 1 is outside in his car.

Unexpectedly Abe turns up. Granger 1 decides to wait and see what they’re up to. When they leave he follows them. He’s spotted and Aaron 3 makes up some story about seeing Thomas Granger at six that afternoon, and convinces Abe that this is a time travelling Granger. Everything that Aaron 3 says to Abe about Granger is BS apart from the slip about "contact with him in the 3 hours".


I know this is a ridiculously complicated explanation, and I’m not for one moment suggesting that this is what we’re supposed to believe happened, but it does show that there are possible explanations that don’t require that this Granger to have travelled from the future. The permutations are indeed endless.

[foobario]

Wow... good call, Vode. I like it.

The possible permutations *are* endless...

Note that this same scenario can play out with the 'consensus' timeline and an Aaron4 who travels from the future with Granger. When Abe reaches the back of the house, it is Aaron4 he finds... he's just decked Aaron3 and pushed him out of sight, and probably checked Granger into the fencepost for good measure. He's responsible for Granger coming back, so he knows how long Granger has been around.

It's interesting how many things don't add up in those scenes, as presented in the movie. Having 'unknowable' elements from the future is one thing, but we've also got Abe & Aaron making a logical error that will result in an unintended set of doubles (which leads in nicely to the 'legion' bit from the cast commentary), and Aaron either making an error in basic math or letting slip that he knows more about when Granger came back than he should.

[stematwork]

i think vode has a very plausible explanation here...makes perfect sense.

in addition...if you guys would just relent from the linear view that there are only 3 or so Aaron's and Abe's and come over to my warped view that there truly are LEGIONS of copies due to an un-known amount of time loops, then everything would make sense.


stem
_________________
there is no fear in this dojo

[Rob Y]

[pedro2112]

I don't think Vode's explanation makes much sense from what we know. Let me explain..

Why would a non-time travelling Granger suggest that Abe and Aaron are "legion."

Second, and more important, why is it that Abe is the one that triggers the comas.
_________________
I'm in a groove.....

or is it a rut? - Neil Peart

[vode]

I'm not suggesting it makes any more sense than any other Granger theory. I'm firmly in the unknowable camp and this was just speculation about one way that Aaron could know where Granger was at 11 pm.

[Rob Y]

Just to be perverse, I'll add this to support vode's scenario....

We never see any future doubles pass out during the film (except failsafed Abe, but it makes sense because he's been drugged and in a box for 3 or 4 days)

However, we have lots of unconcious originals.

Maybe when a severe enough time paradox is created, it's the *original* who goes into a coma... I mean, we don't really know how this stuff works.

So maybe future double Granger came back 3 days earlier in the week, displaced his original, but didn't do a good enough job. So now unshaven *original* Granger is trailing Abe and Aaron around, just trying to figure out what's going on, but he passes out every time he gets around Abe because not only has he been displaced in his life, he's been displaced in time.

Aaron1 and Abe1 experience the exact same effect around their future doubles, but we can't tell because they are already gassed and drugged.

And Granger's comment "They are legion?" Simple. He's talking about the Romans.

[pedro2112]

[vode]