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wildonrio
Joined: 11 May 2006
Posts: 7
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 Posted: Thu May 11, 2006 11:46 pm Post subject: The most complete Primer timeline yet |
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Complete Primer Timeline
Compiled by Tyler Young – wildonrio@gmail.com
The following is my take on the movie after watching it 12 times.
Events in brackets are not verified by the evidence given in the movie but are nonetheless probable. The numbers next to people’s names represent how many times they have time traveled. They also differentiate different people who have the same name.
Please email me if you find a typo or mistake. If you decide to read all of it, it will become apparent that I have no girlfriend to have this much free time. Also, if anyone with computer graphics knowledge would be willing to make a graphical version of it like the one found at http://neuwanstein.fw.hu/primer_timeline.html, please email me wildonrio@gmail.com so I can send you a Word copy of the timeline. The word copy uses italics and bolding that I didn't have the energy to do here.
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Timeline 1 (not shown in movie)
Monday:
Before 8:30am Abe0 sets a timer for failsafe A and goes back home to sleep. It later turns on and no one exits. Aaron0 has cereal for breakfast and then goes to the park bench.]
8:30am Abe0 sets a timer on box A and leaves for the hotel.
8:45am Box A turns on and no one exits.
After ~9:00am Aaron0 leaves the park bench and most likely goes to work.
8:45am-3:15pm Abe0 drives to, stays in, and returns from a hotel in Russellfield. He calls his mutual fund company to find out which stocks had the highest gain that day.
3:15pm Abe0 enters box A and disappears. He will emerge in Timeline 2 as Abe1.
After 3:15pm Rachel calls Abe0 but he doesn’t answer. [Abe0’s family and friends have no idea where he is and most likely a missing person report is filed. Aaron0 is possibly blamed for the disappearance. The police most likely find the box at the storage unit and time travel is thus introduced to the world with its inventor not around to enjoy the fame he would receive. No one ever sees Abe0 again.]
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Timeline 2 (not shown in movie)
Monday:
Before 8:30am Abe0 sets timer for failsafe A and goes back home to sleep. It later turns on and no one exits. Aaron0 has cereal for breakfast and then goes to the park bench.
8:30am Abe0 sets a 15 minute timer on box A and leaves for the hotel.
8:45am Box A turns on and Abe1 exits. At some point, he buys the stocks that he had heard from his mutual fund company would do well. He takes a taxi to the park, approaches Aaron0 at the park bench and convinces him to not go to work.
8:45am-3:15pm Abe0 drives to, stays in, and returns from a hotel in Russellfield. He calls his mutual fund company to find out which stocks had the highest gain that day. Aaron0 asks Will to invite his cousin, who is Rachel’s ex-boyfriend, to the party. Abe1 takes Aaron0 to various labs to try and explain why the fungus is growing on the weeble.
Before 3:15pm Abe1 and Aaron0 watch as Abe0 enters the storage unit.
3:15pm Abe0 enters box A and disappears.
After 3:15pm Abe1 and Aaron0 park their car in a field and discuss time travel and theorize that Aaron0 probably went to work the first time through. Rachel calls Abe1, he answers and invites her to the party.
Evening At the party, Rachel’s ex-boyfriend shows up and pulls out a shotgun but he doesn’t fire. Abe1 and Aaron0 are not there. Aaron0 builds box B. At some later point in time, Aaron0 finds out about what happened at the party and wishes he could have been there to take the shotgun from Rachel’s ex-boyfriend and be the hero.
Tuesday:
8:30am Abe1 and Aaron0 set 15 minute timers on box A and box B and leave for the hotel.
8:45am Box A and box B turn on and no one exits.
8:45am-3:15pm Abe1 and Aaron0 drive to, stay in, and return from a hotel in Russellfield. While in Russellfield they go to the library to find out which stocks had the highest gain that day.
3:15pm Abe1 and Aaron0 enter the boxes and disappear. They will emerge in Timeline 3 as Abe2 and Aaron1.
After 3:15pm Abe1 and Aaron0’s families and friends never see them again. [Eventually, their time machines are probably found at the storage unit, and the world discovers that they had time traveled. They are hailed as the first time travelers, but are not around to enjoy their fame.]
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Timeline 3 (not shown in movie)
Tuesday:
8:30am Abe1 and Aaron0 set 15 minute timers on box A and box B and leave for the hotel.
8:45am Box A and box B turn on and Abe2 and Aaron1 exit. They go and buy the stocks that they know will do well.
8:45am-3:15pm Abe1 and Aaron0 drive to, stay in, and return from a hotel in Russellfield. While in Russellfield they go to the library to find out which stocks had the highest gain that day.
Before 3:15pm Abe2 and Aaron1 watch as Abe1 and Aaron0 enter the storage unit.
3:15pm Abe1 and Aaron0 enter the boxes and disappear.
Wednesday:
8:30am Abe2 and Aaron1 set 15 minute timers on box A and box B and leave for the hotel.
8:45am Box A and box B turn on and no one exits.
8:45am-3:15pm Abe2 and Aaron1 drive to, stay in, and return from a hotel in Russellfield. While in Russellfield they go to the library to find out which stocks had the highest gain that day.
3:15pm Abe2 and Aaron1 enter boxes and disappear. They will emerge in Timeline 4 as Abe3 and Aaron2.
After 3:15pm Once again, Abe2 and Aaron1 are never seen again, [and time travel is eventually discovered by the world.]
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Timeline 4
Wednesday:
8:30am Abe2 and Aaron1 set 15 minute timers on box A and box B and leave for the hotel.
8:45am Box A and box B turn on and Abe3 and Aaron2 exit. Abe3 tells Aaron2 about a dream he had at the beach. Aaron2 makes a mental note of this dream.
8:45am-3:15pm Abe2 and Aaron1 drive to, stay in, and return from a hotel in Russellfield. While in Russellfield they go to the library to find out which stocks had the highest gain that day.
3:15pm Abe2 and Aaron1 enter the boxes and disappear.
After Wednesday, probably Thursday or Friday:*
Aaron2 discovers on the storage manifest that Abe3 has 2 rooms rented under his name. He finds the room and discovers Abe3’s secret failsafe A. He goes and gets box A and box B, folds them up, gets inside failsafe A with the boxes, and disappears. He will emerge in Timeline 5 as Aaron3. When Aaron2 disappears, Abe3 goes to his failsafe and realizes that it has been turned off. He also finds that box A and box B are missing. Since there was only one failsafe, there is no way for Abe3 to go back and catch Aaron2. [He explains to Aaron2’s family and friends what has happened to Aaron2.]
*Since we don’t know the exact day that Aaron0 finds the failsafe, nor the time that Abe0 turns on the failsafe, we are also unsure as to whether he finds failsafe A before or after the catastrophe with Rachel which sends Granger back in time to save/see her. If anyone can verify the time that Aaron0 finds the failsafe or the time that Abe0 turns it on, please email me at wildonrio@gmail.com.
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Timeline 5
Monday:
Before 8:30am Abe0 sets timer for failsafe A and goes back home to sleep. It later turns on and Aaron3 exits. He hides failsafe A in another room for the reason that his double is coming back in it. He takes one of the boxes and makes his own failsafe (we will call it failsafe B) and sets a timer. The other box he puts where failsafe A had been as to deceive Abe1 that it is failsafe A (we will call this one failsafe C). He also sets a timer for failsafe C. Failsafe B and failsafe C turn on, no one exits. Aaron3 goes to his house in a hooded sweatshirt and puts some type of chemical in Aaron0’s milk. Aaron0 has cereal for breakfast and goes unconscious from the chemical. Aaron3 hides Aaron0 in the attic and then goes to the park bench to wait for Abe1.
8:30am Abe0 sets 15 minute timer on box A and leaves for the hotel.
8:45am Box A turns on, Abe1 exits and takes a taxi to the park. At some point, he buys the stocks that he had heard from his mutual fund company would do well. Aaron3 begins recording conversations with a hidden tape recorder. He leaves an earpiece in his ear so that people will ask what he is listening to, when in fact he may not be listening to anything. This way, the next time through when he already has everything recorded and needs the earpiece to reproduce to his recorded conversations, people will have already asked about the earpiece and the conversations will be the same.
After 8:45am Abe1 approaches Aaron3 at the park bench and says he is listening to basketball. Abe1 thinks he convinces him to not go to work when Aaron3, in reality, wasn’t planning on going to work.
8:45am-3:15pm Abe0 drives to, stays in, and returns from a hotel in Russellfield. He calls his mutual fund company to find out which stocks had the highest gain that day. Aaron2 asks Will to invite his cousin, who is Rachel’s ex-boyfriend, to the party. During the conversation, he shoots for a basket and makes it in. Abe1 takes Aaron0 to various labs to try and explain why the fungus is growing on the weeble.
Before 3:15pm Abe1 and Aaron3 watch as Abe0 enters the storage unit.
3:15pm Abe0 enters box A and disappears.
After 3:15pm Abe1 and Aaron3 park their car in a field and discuss time travel and theorize that Aaron0 probably went to work the first time through. Rachel calls Abe1, he answers and invites her to the party.
Evening Aaron3 goes to the party. There, Rachel’s ex-boyfriend shows up and pulls out a shotgun. Aaron3 attacks him, takes the shotgun from him, and is considered a hero by everyone. Abe1 isn’t there. Aaron3 builds box B.
Tuesday:
8:30am Abe1 and Aaron3 set 15 minute timers on box A and box B and leave for the hotel.
8:45am Box A and box B turn on, no one exits.
8:45am-3:15pm Abe1 and Aaron3 drive to, stay in, and return from a hotel in Russellfield. While in Russellfield they go to the library to find out which stocks had the highest gain that day.
3:15pm Abe1 and Aaron3 enter boxes and disappear. They will emerge in Timeline 6 as Abe2 and Aaron4.
After 3:15pm Abe1, Aaron3, and Aaron0 are all missing. A few days later, Aaron0 breaks out of the attic, [and explains to his family what happened to him. They all find the time machines and discover what happened. Aaron0 probably takes credit for inventing time travel since Abe1 has disappeared and isn’t there to argue.]
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Timeline 6
Tuesday:
8:30am Abe1 and Aaron3 set 15 minute timers on box A and box B and leave for the hotel.
8:45am Box A and box B turn on, Aaron4 exits first, and then Abe2. In Abe2’s perspective it appears that he (Abe2) exited first. This is because time is going backwards when Aaron4 exits so it takes a minute or so for Abe2 to catch up to Aaron4’s time. [They then both go and buy the stocks that they know will do well.]
8:45am-3:15pm Abe1 and Aaron3 drive to, stay in, and return from a hotel in Russellfield. While in Russellfield they go to the library to find out which stocks had the highest gain that day.
Before 3:15pm Abe2 and Aaron4 watch as Abe1 and Aaron3 enter the storage unit.
3:15pm Abe1 and Aaron3 enter boxes and disappear.
Evening Abe2 and Aaron4 talk with Aaron’s wife Kara about what she would do with all of the money in the world. Aaron4 mentions how he wants to go punch his boss Platts in the face and then somehow go back and tell himself not to. He can then live with the satisfaction of punching his boss, but not the consequences. Kara is impressed and calls him a hero (alluding to his actions at the party which Aaron4 probably told her about earlier.) Kara complains about rats in the attic, not knowing that the noises are actually coming from Aaron0.
Wednesday:
8:30am Abe2 and Aaron4 set 15 minute timers on box A and box B and leave for the hotel.
8:45am Box A and box B turn on, no one exits.
8:45am-3:15pm Abe2 and Aaron4 drive to, stay in, and return from a hotel in Russellfield. While in Russellfield they go to the library to find out which stocks had the highest gain that day.
3:15pm Abe2 and Aaron4 go back to the storage unit and enter box A and box B. They will emerge in Timeline 7 as Abe3 and Aaron5.
After 3:15pm Abe2 and Aaron4 are gone forever. Aaron0 later breaks out [and takes credit for inventing time travel.]
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Timeline 7
Wednesday:
8:30am Abe2 and Aaron4 set 15 minute timers on box A and box B and leave for the hotel.
8:45am Box A and box B turn on, Abe3 and Aaron5 exit. Aaron5 knows that Abe3 has just had a dream about the beach because he had told it to him in Timeline 4. For fun, Aaron5 describes Abe3’s dream before Abe3 has a chance to tell him about it, as if it was his own. Abe3 reacts by merely adding a few details, but he is obviously a little confused.
After 8:45am Aaron5 has an ear bleed. This is most likely a side effect from so much time traveling. Aaron5 and Abe3 go and buy the stocks that will have the highest gain.
8:45am-3:15pm Abe2 and Aaron4 drive to, stay in, and return from a hotel in Russellfield. While in Russellfield they go to the library to find out which stocks had the highest gain that day.
3:15pm Abe2 and Aaron4 go back to the storage unit and enter box A and box B. They disappear.
Afternoon/Evening Abe3 finds out about how Aaron5 (at the time, Aaron3) had gone to the party and risked his life to take the shotgun from Rachel’s ex-boyfriend. Abe3 is angry because he doesn’t think Rachel’s life is more important than Kara and Lauren having a father. Aaron5 argues that things are better now, alluding to how his wife thinks more highly of him (she had called him a hero the night before).
Thursday:
8:30am Abe3 and Aaron5 set 15 minute timers on box A and box B and leave for the hotel.
8:45am Box A and box B turn on, no one exits.
8:45am-3:15pm At the hotel, Aaron5 forgets about his cell phone being on and answers it. He tells Kara to save him some dinner because he won’t be home in time. While in Russellfield they go to the library to find out which stocks had the highest gain that day.
3:15pm Abe3 and Aaron5 enter box A and box B. They will emerge in Timeline 8 as Abe4 and Aaron6.
After 3:15pm Abe3 and Aaron4 are gone forever. Aaron0 later breaks out [and takes credit for inventing time travel.]
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Timeline 8
Thursday:
8:30am Abe3 and Aaron5 set 15 minute timers on box A and box B and leave for the hotel.
8:45am Box A and box B turn on, Abe4 and Aaron6 exit. They go to buy the stocks that will have the highest gain.
8:45am-3:15pm While walking down the street, Aaron6 once again forgets about his cell phone and it rings. He doesn’t answer this time. Meanwhile at the hotel, Aaron5’s cell phone doesn’t ring this time around, and Kara never talks to either Aaron. While in Russellfield they go to the library to find out which stocks had the highest gain that day. Since Aaron5 doesn’t answer the phone, this “breaks symmetry”. Abe4 is worried and Aaron6 pretends to be worried, but since this affects nothing, they realize that causality isn’t as dangerous as they thought.
3:15pm Abe3 and Aaron5 enter box A and box B. They disappear.
Afternoon Aaron6 sees Granger0 clean-shaven.
5:00pm Abe4 sets 15 minute timers on box A and box B.
5:15pm Box A and box B turn on, no one exits.
Friday (not shown in movie and very theoretical):
2:00am Some kids are hitting cars and setting off car alarms. This wakes up Abe4. He goes to Aaron6’s house and tells him how they should now go punch Platts. This way they could go get in the boxes, become Abe5 and Aaron7, and go back and stop the kids from waking Abe4 up. Abe4 would then never have the idea to punch Platts, he would never tell Abe6, and then they would get in the boxes as planned the next day.
After 2:00am [Abe4 and Aaron6 go to Platts’ house and punch him in the face. Meanwhile, Rachel’s ex-boyfriend finds Rachel alone and most likely kills her. Her father, Thomas Granger0, finds out and contacts Abe4 to try and get a grasp at how it happened. Granger0 is terribly upset, Abe4 sympathizes with him, and decides to tell him about time travel. Granger0 is overjoyed and begs to let him go back with him (Abe4) to stop the ex-boyfriend. Abe4 agrees but doesn’t tell Aaron6 in fear that he would be mad at him for divulging time travel to an outside person. Abe4 and Granger0 enter boxes. They will emerge in Timeline 9 as Abe5 and Granger1. Some type of court case is begun to try and explain what happened to Abe4, Aaron0, and Granger0. When Aaron0 breaks out of the attic, he is most likely blamed for the two’s disappearance. Aaron6 most likely goes fugitive as to not be blamed.]
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Timeline 9
Thursday:
Afternoon Aaron6 sees Granger0 clean-shaven.
5:00pm Abe4 sets 15 minute timers on box A and box B.
5:15pm Box A and box B turn on, Abe5 and Granger1 exit.
Friday:
2:00am The kids wake up Abe4. He goes to Aaron6’s house and tells him how they should go punch Platts. Meanwhile, Abe5 and Granger1 are outside Aaron6’s house in Granger1’s car. If anyone has a valid theory as to what they are doing outside Aaron6’s house, please email me at wildonrio@gmail.com. I cannot figure this out.
After 2:00am Abe5 gets out of the car and begins running around Aaron6’s house, most likely looking for a way in (I don’t know why). On their way to go to Platts’ house, Aaron6 notices Granger1 sitting in his car. He also notices that he now has a 2 or 3-day-old beard, while earlier he had seen Granger0 clean shaven. Abe4 calls Rachel, gets Granger0’s number, and calls and verifies that Granger0 is indeed at home. Aaron6 gets upset and starts to chase Granger1. Abe4 goes after them. Granger1 faints from being close to Abe4. Aaron6 and Abe4 can’t figure out how Granger0 found out about time travel. Abe4 secretly goes to failsafe C, thinking it is failsafe A, and goes back in time to try and figure out how Granger finds out. After Abe4 goes back, Aaron6 follows him in failsafe B, probably taking both of the boxes with him to make failsafe D and failsafe E. Abe4 and Aaron6 will emerge in Timeline 10 as Abe6 and Aaron7. Aaron0 and Abe5 remain in this timeline to take the places of Aaron6 and Abe4. [While Aaron0 is still locked in the attic, Abe5 goes and saves Rachel. Aaron0 eventually wakes up completely confused as to everything. Granger1 is possibly disposed of, as Granger0 is still in the world with no running boxes to send him back. Since his daughter is saved, he has no reason to go back or even know about time travel anyway.]
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Timeline 10
Monday:
Before 8:30am Abe0 sets timer for failsafe A and goes back home to sleep. It later turns on and Aaron3 exits. He hides failsafe A in another room, takes one of the boxes and makes failsafe B and sets a timer. The other box he puts where failsafe A had been and sets a timer for it also. Failsafe B turns on and Aaron7 exits. Failsafe C turns on and Abe6 exits. Aaron3 goes to his house in a hooded sweatshirt and puts some type of chemical in Aaron0’s milk. Aaron0 has cereal for breakfast and goes unconscious from the chemical. Aaron3 hides Aaron0 in the attic and is about to go to the park bench to meet Abe1 when Aaron7 attacks him. They fight, but Aaron7 is overtaken. They talk, and Aaron7 convinces Aaron3 that he is unnecessary because he (Aaron7) has already recorded all of the conversations, as Aaron3 was planning on doing. Aaron3 decides to leave, and Aaron7 tells him what he (Aaron7) plans on doing. Aaron3 leaves and becomes the narrator and Aaron7 goes to the park to meet Abe6. Meanwhile, Abe6 goes to Abe0’s house, gases him, and locks him in a closet.
~8:45am Abe6 approaches Aaron7 at the park bench. Aaron7 listens to his recordings and tries to create the same conversation they had in Timeline 5. Abe6 notices and faints from shock/fatigue from being in the machine.
After 8:45am Abe6 has an ear bleed. Aaron7 explains about how he found the failsafe and went back to record the conversations. Aaron7 goes to the basketball court to have Will invite Rachel’s ex-boyfriend to the party. Although he misses the shot this time through, it doesn’t affect the outcome of the conversation.
After 3:15pm Abe6 and Aaron7 discuss whether or not they should invite Rachel to the party. They decide to do so to make sure that the ex-boyfriend can be caught in the act, and thus go to jail, making it impossible for him to threaten her life later when she’s alone. Rachel calls Abe6 and he invites her to the party.
Evening Abe6 and Aaron7 go to the party. They remove the bullets from the ex-boyfriend’s shotgun. When he brings the gun in, Aaron7 takes it from him [and the ex-boyfriend is arrested] (although this may have taken more than a few times to get right).
After Monday:
Daytime At the airport, Abe6 is angry with Aaron7 for messing with time travel too much. Aaron7 comments on how Abe6 wants his wife and kid. Abe6 gets angrier and they part ways. During their conversation, Aaron0 breaks out of the attic and Abe0 breaks out of the closet. Abe6 goes to secretly take pieces from the machine so that Abe0 and Aaron0 never discover time travel, and Aaron7 goes to France to build a room-sized time machine.
Last edited by wildonrio on Fri May 12, 2006 1:22 pm; edited 3 times in total |
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tbam
Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 62
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| Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 1:09 am Post subject: |
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Whilst I respect and applaud the amount of effort you have put into this timeline. I feel it is incorrect and I also get the impression it was based on another incorrect timeline that is circulating.
There is another going around that documents a new timeline for every time someone goes back in time, as well as a new iteration of that person everytime they go back, which makes the timeline (in my opinion) overly complicated and confusing to people who may still be in doubt about the numbers of Aarons and Abes by the end of the movie (e.g you got up to Aaron7 and Abe6). This also provides continuity problems when trying to think back to who did what, when essentially there is only one main Aaron, one main Abe. 2 copies of Aaron we barely see, and a copy of abe who stays drugged for the remainder of the movie.
I feel you start going into problems around timeline 5, it is also where it begins to get confusing (even to me) and starts to combine elements that are not possible to be together.
(e.g Aaron3 (normally considered Aaron2 to most) recording the events and going on to do stocks with Abe1 (who is still the original Abe, and not a copy). This is not possible to be viewed in the movie, without Aaron failsafing ALONG with Abe after The Granger Incident. Remember, we can only view the last version, so if we are seeing Aaron recording the events then we would not be able to see him listening to the events the second time.)
Anyways, great work. But I must disagree with the topic title.
If you want to view an alternative you can view my timeline diagram (and soon to be posted timeline) in the thread: my timeline.
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vode
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 323
Location: Hampton, UK
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| Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 4:21 am Post subject: |
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Wow, you've put a lot of effort into this. Well done.
There will be many postings from the regulars to let you know why this, or that, in your timeline is impossible but to me it looks as accurate as most that get posted here. But there are a couple of things that I'd like to point out.
| wildonrio wrote: | | We know that failsafe A has been running for 3 days, 22 hours when Aaron2 finds it |
This is the time on the box display after the Granger incident when Abe failsafes, not Aaron. I’m not sure when Aaron first failsafes, but it’s very unlikely that it’s going to be at exactly the same moment as Abe did after a different sequence of events.
I don't think there's any concrete evidence in the film about when any of the versions of Aaron failsafe. The only thing that's definite is, because when Aaron first failsafes (usually referred to as Aaron 2, but Aaron3 in your timeline) he uses the original failsafe set up by Abe, this means he goes back further than anyone else.
This leads some people to believe that this gives him more knowledge of future events and more control. He’s back earlier, so they say that this makes him prime. Personally I think that, unless you have some control over the exit order of various failsafes, then the amount of power you have depends upon how far in the future you’ve failsafed back from.
Even without any definite proof I suspect that both failsafing Aarons are likely to have only travelled back a day or two, but between them they have set up many failsafes with different exit times. This creates a balance of power between Abe, having most knowledge of the future, and Aaron, with most control over when he can failsafe to.
| wildonrio wrote: | | Abe4 secretly goes to failsafe C, thinking it is failsafe A, and goes back in time to try and figure out how Granger finds out. After Abe4 goes back, Aaron6 follows him in failsafe B |
This is something that’s been debated over and over - can two people use two failsafes at different locations with different "A end" & "B end" times, and still both go back and meet up in an earlier time. There isn’t enough evidence in the film to prove this one way or another, but from what little there is I think it’s more likely that after Abe goes back he is disconnected from all of the other Granger incident versions of the characters.
And of course this ties in with what I was saying above, both of the failsafing Aarons we see towards the end of the film have probably come back from only a day or two in the future. Whatever the sequence of failsafing, Aaron probably only comes back to fix the party. He may have done this the first time, or maybe it took him a number of tries, but either way the Aaron at the Granger incident is an Aaron who has succeeded in fixing the party and then gone on to other things.
Even if Aaron can failsafe after the Granger incident I feel that, if he does, he’s going to end up in a different version of the past to the failsafing Abe. |
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wildonrio
Joined: 11 May 2006
Posts: 7
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| Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 12:56 pm Post subject: |
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| vode wrote: | | Even if Aaron can failsafe after the Granger incident I feel that, if he does, he’s going to end up in a different version of the past to the failsafing Abe. |
I'm trying hard to grasp what you mean here. In my mind, I can't picture two different versions of the past. To me, I can't see how different A and B ends would put people in two different "versions" of the past. Let's say I start my machine at 1pm and you start yours at 2pm. Then I get in mine at 3pm and you get in yours at 4pm. I will then get out of mine at 1pm and you will get out of yours at 2pm. But when I get out, I just wait an hour and then I'll get to see you and "meet up with you", right? How are we in different versions of the past?
By the way, thanks for pointing out my mistake in saying that when Aaron found the failsafe it had been running for 3 days, 22 hours. You are absolutely right in that it had been running that long when Abe found it and not Aaron.
And tbam, I think we see the movie very differently. I'm not saying that there are 7 Aarons and 6 Abes by the end of the movie. Those numbers merely mean how many times they have time traveled. I'm aware that by the end of the movie, to the audiences knowledge, there are 3 Aarons and 2 Abes. I don't understand how you can generally state that their is one maind Aaron and one main Abe. How can one Aaron be more "main" than another, is it just by how much time he gets in the movie? I also don't understand what you mean by this:
| tbam wrote: | | Aaron3 (normally considered Aaron2 to most) recording the events and going on to do stocks with Abe1 (who is still the original Abe, and not a copy). This is not possible to be viewed in the movie, without Aaron failsafing ALONG with Abe after The Granger Incident. Remember, we can only view the last version, so if we are seeing Aaron recording the events then we would not be able to see him listening to the events the second time. |
For example, if you are walking the street, I can walk with you to my house. I can then go jump in a time machine, go deck myself before myself starts walking with you and then I can walk with you again but this time around go to YOUR house. You are still the same you, but I changed something you did, even though you didn't time travel. Am I even close to what you are trying to say?
I also wrote this timeline from total scratch, I didn't base it on anything but what I saw in the movie. |
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pedro2112
Joined: 25 Jul 2005
Posts: 456
Location: Midwest
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| Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 3:04 pm Post subject: |
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| wildonrio wrote: |
I'm trying hard to grasp what you mean here. In my mind, I can't picture two different versions of the past. To me, I can't see how different A and B ends would put people in two different "versions" of the past. Let's say I start my machine at 1pm and you start yours at 2pm. Then I get in mine at 3pm and you get in yours at 4pm. I will then get out of mine at 1pm and you will get out of yours at 2pm. But when I get out, I just wait an hour and then I'll get to see you and "meet up with you", right? |
Maybe, maybe not. As soon as you get out of your box at 1pm you have "revised" the timeline, so that you are actually back at 1pm. Unless the other person gets into the box at 4pm, three hours later (not in the revised, erased, future), then he won't get out of the box.
I was going to say that you could prevent the person from getting into the box at 4pm, but that raises more questions that (the more and more I think about it) are interesting. For example, let's say that two people, Fred and Ethel, have two time travelling boxes. Both decide that they are going to time travel that day. Fred is going to turn on his box at 1pm and get into the box when it winds down at 3pm. Ethel is going to turn on her box at 2pm and get into the box at 4pm. While waiting to get into the box, each will have a seperate hotel room at the local motel 6.
Let's follow it from the perspective of Fred. He turns on his box at 1pm, and then quickly makes his way to the motel six. He waits until 3pm, and then hops in his box. While in the box, he really doesn't want ethel to time travel at all, so he plans on stopping her. However, the results of what he is planning depends on how he tries to stop her.
First, he could get out of the box at 1pm, make his way over to Ethel's box and smash it to pieces. That one's easy... Ethel doesn't pop out of the box at 2pm. The "Ethel" in Windbario's scenario never got into a box at 4pm, as Fred revised the timeline as soon as he went back in the failsafe. Nothing occured after Fred got into the box at 3pm... the universe rewound to 1pm. In this scenario, it is clear to see how it would be almost physically impossible for Abe and Aaron to have both failsafed after the Granger Incident.
Second, Fred could try and prevent Ethel from going into the box at 4pm. This raises some interesting questions that I haven't seen discussed on this forum. Would the thought in Fred's mind that he is going to prevent Ethel from getting into the box be enough to prevent her from popping out at 2pm? Since he won't know if he's sucessful in preventing her from going in at 4pm until he actually physically prevents her from going in at 4pm, and since 2pm is before 3pm, is it the thought that counts? What if he was definitely planning on preventing her from going in at 3pm, and she still pops out at 2pm? Does that mean that even though he is planning on preventing her from going in at 4pm, that she still somehow does it anyway? For example, let's suppose that he was planning on stopping her, but got hit by a bus at 3:50pm before he was able to stop her. She then failsafe's back to 2pm, thus revising the timeline so that Fred has no memory of anything that happens after 2pm, when she pops out.
The fact that she pops out must indicate to Fred that he must have failed to prevent her from going in during that timeline. However, the only way that could happen is if something drastic happened to Fred after 2pm and before 4pm. However, that is an extreme example. If upon exiting the box at 1pm, Fred decides to stop Ethel after 2pm but after 4pm, in most circumstances one would assume that Fred will succeed (let's assume that he plans on drugging her). So when Fred pops out of his box and has these thoughts, Ethel won't come out of the box at 2pm. However, no matter what, Fred still has to drug Ethel (even though she didn't pop out at 2pm), otherwise she'll go through the box and revise everything back to 2pm.
I'm not sure exactly what my point is, other than to suggest that it isn't as easy as one person getting into a box at 3 and the other person getting into the box at 4. There is no gurantee that they will "meet up" later.
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vode
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 323
Location: Hampton, UK
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| Posted: Fri May 12, 2006 4:32 pm Post subject: |
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| wildonrio wrote: | | I'm trying hard to grasp what you mean here. In my mind, I can't picture two different versions of the past. |
Ok, look at it this way - two boxes X and Y are turned on at 1pm and 2pm. Later one, or both boxes are used to failsafe.
In the 1st version of the past nobody got out of either box.
2nd version of the past someone got out of X, but nobody got out of Y.
3rd version someone got out of Y, nobody got out of X.
4th version someone got out of each box.
The A end of each box is tethered in a particular past, and when someone gets out that past is changed. Changed into a past in which now someone does get out. That's the only difference.
So when box X is used, on exiting the past changes from 1st to 2nd, and when box Y is used the past changes from 1st to 3rd, even if box X is also being used. Someone using box X in this case still finds themselves in the 2nd version of the past.
The only way to get the 4th version is if the traveller exiting the Y box is returning from a future that followed the 2nd version of the past.
I'm not saying that this is the only explanation, but it is one way to make sense of the failsafing. Otherwise why don’t the failsafe boxes end up with branching timelines ending in many possible futures with hordes of Abes and Aarons from all of those futures trying to return using the same box.
The first person, from one of these many possible futures, to use a particular box changes the past by the very act of exiting. From this new past there’s now a new disconnected set of branching timelines. All of these futures only become possible after someone gets out of a box, and anyone that gets out later will be from one of these new futures.
This works for failsafing, but doesn’t fit what we see with the day trading boxes. It’s possible to work through the scenario where Abe and Aaron get into the day trading boxes, but only Abe gets out. Abe would be baffled, but would assume that something went wrong with Aaron’s box.
He might go ahead with the day trading and then wait to see what happened to Aaron. Both Abe and Aaron would get into the boxes and the baffled Abe would be left alone. But now this Aaron would exit and find Abe already out of his box. This is what we see in the film.
This obviously creates even more orphaned Abes and Aarons than in your timeline but it can be made to work. But it’s not a pretty picture. So I tend to think that because the day trading boxes are in the same room and are turned on simultaneously maybe they’re linked in some way and can be used to take two people back into the same past.
Or maybe this is all too complicated, and Abe and Aaron did both failsafe from TGI. Or maybe, as I’ve suggested elsewhere, Aaron failsafed from a very similar TGI that’s not seen in the film, but then he let it all happen again but this time it is Abe who failsafes from a second Granger incident.
There comes a point where you realise that the possibilities really are endless, and because we’re seeing everything from Abe’s perspective maybe it really doesn’t matter who the Aarons are or when they came back from any more than it matters who the failsafing Granger is. All of the Aarons are untrustworthy SOBs who lie to Abe whenever it suits them. Abe, and we the audience, have to decide not based upon who the Aarons really are but on how dangerous they are. |
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tbam
Joined: 20 Apr 2006
Posts: 62
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| Posted: Sun May 14, 2006 8:42 pm Post subject: |
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Sorry if my post was confusing.
What I'm getting at, Pedro suggested in a different way. He used the example of someone getting in at 3pm and someone getting in at 4pm.
His example (according to the movie) is impossible. (the suggestion that exiting the box erases all events that happened in the previous timeline and are yet to happen).
Whether Fred got in at 3pm and Ethel got in at 4pm is irrelevant. The point is that there are 2 separate boxes that two people got into at separate times. The difference could be an hour, 5 minutes or even 2 nanoseconds. There is still a difference.
According to the movie, we see Aaron AND Abe exit the boxes after both getting in. This is proof that getting out of the box doesn't erase the future. The future still happened, as thats where you came from. You are merely changing it, or parts of it.
You start a new series of causality, however everything you don't affect still happens as it did.
If this was incorrect, then it would be impossible to travel in separate boxes and emerge together. Because even a microsecond of a difference would then erase the timeline. But they both get out of the boxes so its obviously possible to to use separate boxes.
My hypothesis is that as soon as you get in the box, you are disconnected or untethered from time. Meaning that causality or time cannot outside of the box cannot affect you. You could have your double killed, but you'd still be in the box going back in time. Someone could stop you getting in the box, but if you have gotten into the box at any point in time, you still exist because your origins are untethered.
| vode wrote: | And of course this ties in with what I was saying above, both of the failsafing Aarons we see towards the end of the film have probably come back from only a day or two in the future. Whatever the sequence of failsafing, Aaron probably only comes back to fix the party. He may have done this the first time, or maybe it took him a number of tries, but either way the Aaron at the Granger incident is an Aaron who has succeeded in fixing the party and then gone on to other things.
Even if Aaron can failsafe after the Granger incident I feel that, if he does, he’s going to end up in a different version of the past to the failsafing Abe. |
If Aaron failsafed after the Granger incident he would arrive at the same time as he did the time before (The time Aaron2 exited and fought himself). If Abe failsafed as well, then he would exit his box at the time Aaron turned it on. Which would obviously be after Aaron.
So, to use an example to highlight this situation.
If they both failsafed after the granger incident, Aaron would get out of his box first as his was turned on first. If he went and stood next to Abe's box at the point Aaron turned it on Abe would pop out even though the future hasn't happened yet and the Granger incident may not occur.
It is also on this basis that we substantiate that Abe can only travel on Aaron's timeline, because his was erased the first time Aaron failsafed, and because Abe cannot go further back than Aaron. Abe is forced to enter a world where Aaron has already exited his box and done his thing.
I hope this makes sense.
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vode
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
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| Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 4:06 am Post subject: |
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| tbam wrote: | | The point is that there are 2 separate boxes that two people got into at separate times. The difference could be an hour, 5 minutes or even 2 nanoseconds. There is still a difference. |
I know that’s a problem with the "erased" or "disconnected" theories of how the boxes work, which is why I suggested that a way round this would be that, for the day trading, Abe might get out of his box first and wonder what has happened to Aaron. He wouldn’t be able to do anything about this without breaking his own rules and creating a permanent double, so he would has to wait and watch the original Abe and Aaron go into the boxes that afternoon. This time when Aaron exits he’s back with the Abe from the previous iteration, but neither of them knows that.
It seems to them as if they've travelled together.
| tbam wrote: | | If Aaron failsafed after the Granger incident he would arrive at the same time as he did the time before (The time Aaron2 exited and fought himself). |
Are you suggesting that both failsafing Aarons used the same box? I know there have been various ideas posted about re-using the same box, and I agree that it might be possible, but to avoid the problems that this creates (both travellers getting out together, infinite loops, etc.) I think that it's best to make the assumtion that when more than one person uses the same box they all get out into the world as it was when that box was turned on.
In which case the two failsafing Aarons, using the same box, could never meet each other. I think it’s simpler to imagine that, afer using Abe’s failsafe, Aaron then set up one or more extra failsafes including the one that Abe used to get back from the Granger incident. But we know nothing about these except that the one that Abe uses was turned on after Abe's original failsafe.
| tbam wrote: | | If Abe failsafed as well, then he would exit his box at the time Aaron turned it on. Which would obviously be after Aaron. |
Yes, after the first failsafing Aaron. But we don’t know anything about any other failsafing Aaron.
| tbam wrote: | So, to use an example to highlight this situation.
If they both failsafed after the granger incident, Aaron would get out of his box first as his was turned on first. |
We know that the box that the first failsafing Aaron used is turned on first, because it’s Abe’s original failsafe. But we don’t know anything about the failsafe boxes available to Aaron and Abe after TGI.
| tbam wrote: | | If he went and stood next to Abe's box at the point Aaron turned it on Abe would pop out even though the future hasn't happened yet and the Granger incident may not occur. |
If that can happen, then anything can pop out of any box as soon as it’s turned on, not just from any possible future but from any "previous" future. Apart from Granger, this isn’t something we see happen in the film. Of course it’s possible, but isn’t it more likely that the boxes A end is fixed in the particular reality that existed when it was turned on, and after exiting there everything that happened in "previous" futures is "erased" or "disconnected" from you. |
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tbam
Joined: 20 Apr 2006
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| Posted: Mon May 15, 2006 6:27 pm Post subject: |
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| vode wrote: | | Are you suggesting that both failsafing Aarons used the same box? I know there have been various ideas posted about re-using the same box, and I agree that it might be possible, but to avoid the problems that this creates (both travellers getting out together, infinite loops, etc.) I think that it's best to make the assumtion that when more than one person uses the same box they all get out into the world as it was when that box was turned on. |
This is my hypothesis for the use of the failsafes.
The first Aaron failsafes using Abe's box, and exits it after Abe turned it on, making him Aaron2.
The box is then turned off.
Aaron2 sets up his own failsafe and turns it on (this would then mean that anyone getting out of this box would get out after Aaron got out of Abe's box).
Aaron2 then resets Abe's failsafe and turns it on. (this means that anyone exiting this box would get out after its original purpose and after whoever gets out of Aaron's box).
So, Aaron2 drugs himself, goes to the bench and does whatever he does, records the conversations and goes to the party etc etc.
Aaron2 then gets into his own failsafe.
Assuming that they naturally put a 15minute window on the box for it to turn on. Aaron would then exit this failsafe 15 minutes after his previous self had turned it on. Meaning that Aaron2 is already on his way to drug himself. The Aaron that exited the box is now Aaron3. Aaron3 exits the box and goes to his house where he finds that Aaron2 has already drugged Aaron. He fights with Aaron2 and is exhausted.
If Aaron were to failsafe after the Granger incident, I hypothesise that he would have had to reset his box earlier and set another 15 minute timer. Meaning that if he failsafed, he would exit after Aaron3 had gone to fight Aaron2.
I look at Shane Carruths version of time travel like drawing a line on the ground. Getting a piece of ribbon and laying it along the line. Every time someone goes back in time you fold the ribbon over. Every time you then come back into time, you fold it over again.
The most current version is the one on top, but there are still the times you travelled before, both forward in time and back in time.
It is this way that makes it possible for someone to exit the box before you have gotten in. But ONLY if in a previous timeline you have gotten in.
I'm a bit confused about when the boxes get turned off. Does anyone else have a more concrete idea of when the boxes are turned off?
| vode wrote: | | If that can happen, then anything can pop out of any box as soon as it’s turned on, not just from any possible future but from any "previous" future. Apart from Granger, this isn’t something we see happen in the film. Of course it’s possible, but isn’t it more likely that the boxes A end is fixed in the particular reality that existed when it was turned on, and after exiting there everything that happened in "previous" futures is "erased" or "disconnected" from you. |
Thats correct. This removes the paradox of someone getting out before you have gotten in.
However "anything" or someone can only exit the box if it has gotten in at some point in a previous timeline. Something can't come from nothing. So to the observer, it would appear that something had indeed come from nothing. But to an outside observer, it would just appear that something has gone back in time.
A movie example of this, is that we have a Granger appear from a future that hasn't happened and may not happen. He didn't appear from nothing. He came from another timeline. The details of that timeline and the reasons for him getting in the box is what makes this part so ambiguous.
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Rob Y
Joined: 15 May 2005
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| Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 12:11 am Post subject: |
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| tbam wrote: | | You start a new series of causality, however everything you don't affect still happens as it did. |
I think this is well put.
Let me note also there is the sort of "reverse butterfly" effect, that even if you change things, they may still work out the same after all.
So, ya, I agree "erased" is sort of a shorthand way of saying, "We're back at square one, and the events I remember may or may not happen again."
| vode wrote: | | If that can happen, then anything can pop out of any box as soon as it’s turned on, not just from any possible future but from any "previous" future. Apart from Granger, this isn’t something we see happen in the film. |
hehe... with all due respect, this tickled my funnybone. It's like saying, apart from one iceberg, the Titanic is indeed unsinkable. :)
(sorry sorry sorry... of course I have the utmost respect for you, but I thought that was funny) |
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vode
Joined: 28 Jan 2005
Posts: 323
Location: Hampton, UK
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| Posted: Tue May 16, 2006 3:28 am Post subject: |
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I think that we’re getting way off the topic of this thread, but then don’t we always, and I also think that much of what is being said is coming from misunderstandings because many of our posts are ambiguous.
In my opinion, wildonrio, your approach to the timeline is one of the most meticulous we’ve seen posted and comes close to the way I imagine all of the bits of the story that we don’t see in the film. But the way I see it there are many more iterations, some with Abe exiting alone and Aaron not turning up until the next time around.
And there’s also the big debate about whether or not Abe and Aaron both failsafed after the Granger incident and whether the Abe and Aaron we see fixing the party are in fact these same two failsafing characters from TGI.
I accept that this is a possible explanation, but to me it just seems more likely that Abe alone failsafed from TGI. I’m not sure that letting this debate take over thread after thread is the right way to go; shouldn’t we all just agree to differ on this one?
That is until Shane decides to settle it and post something about how he intended this to be understood. Even then some of us will probably still cling to our own interpretations.
| tbam wrote: | | I look at Shane Carruths version of time travel like drawing a line on the ground. Getting a piece of ribbon and laying it along the line. Every time someone goes back in time you fold the ribbon over. Every time you then come back into time, you fold it over again. |
I visualise it like an infinitely long twisting line on an infinite plane, each point on the plane representing a possible moment. There’s a section in the middle nailed down with both ends flailing about through all possible futures and pasts. Our observations of the immediate past, and distant past, keep on nailing down a little bit more of the line. So, gradually, the nailed down section gets bigger and extends into the future.
When they use the boxes it pulls out some of the nails and the line starts to flail about again. The day trading loop does this again and again until finally the line settles into a stable state. Only then does time continue on to the next day. Only the final revision counts.
There may be many lines, and they may cross, anything is possible. But I just imagine it as a single line. The only problem I have is if this system got into a regular oscillation, and I think that this is also a problem with many of the theories posted here. The passage of time would stall, forever repeating two alternating versions of a particular day’s events.
| Rob Y wrote: | | vode wrote: | | If that can happen, then anything can pop out of any box as soon as it’s turned on, not just from any possible future but from any "previous" future. Apart from Granger, this isn’t something we see happen in the film. |
hehe... with all due respect, this tickled my funnybone. It's like saying, apart from one iceberg, the Titanic is indeed unsinkable. :)
(sorry sorry sorry... of course I have the utmost respect for you, but I thought that was funny) |
Yes, that didn’t read the way I meant it to. What I was trying to say is that one data point isn’t enough to prove a theory. If we only have Granger we can’t use him as evidence that people can just pop out of boxes randomly; there are many other more plausible explanations for his existence. |
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